Hey all! RyanThunder here.

I can't remember if I did a topic like this before, but in any case I'm posting it. I made this topic in order to do a little "market research." In other words, I really want to know how important graphics are to MZX gamers. Basically, the question is this:

Given you are playing a MZX game with some decent gameplay, how good should the graphics be?

Like, if a game had the most amazing gameplay ever, would you give it a bad rating if it had crappy graphics?

Your opinion matters! Post it up!

Graphics mean nothing to me, because, well, play NetHack and you'll understand. I really hate how everyone I know prefers graphics over a real fun game. I find, for example, Tetris way more fun than Counter-Strike.

Yeah, I'm silly. :D

But of course if LogiCow makes some über-l33t demo thing in MZX with really nice graphics, I'd give it a 5, because, it's in the graphics and nothing else. Graphics can still be very nice.

This post has been edited by nooodl on Nov 21 2007, 07:08 AM

"I can deal with pre-fab graphics, just as long as they're used well."

Graphics do affect games by a good deal somewhat though. A game with awful graphics can make it difficult to tell what is what damaging the gameplay.

That is the worst example ever.

Yes. If the gameplay is that exemplary, it should be no problem at all to get someone talented to make graphics for your game. JUMP ABOARD THE GRAVY TRAIN.

I'm assuming you want an opinion that'd be more relevant for games in the real world, though. People who say "graphics are nothing" are often either trying to justify a lack of effort, or are trying to show some silly sense of "moral purity". There's a certain baseline you want to hit graphically: you want to look like you cared enough to make the game presentable and the graphics serviceable without harming playability, at minimum. Better graphics definitely help, but once the baseline is met the rest of the graphical improvements are just niceties. Effort shows.

As it stands now with the game I'm currently, I've been using a lot of pre-fab graphics, but I've really been trying hard to make it look the best it can be. The game is too far in production (as it's been worked on-and-off for past 2-3 years) to go back and make multiple char sets. I've never been quite a fan of multiple char sets anyhow. The gameplay itself I've found is a bit addictive, and that's coming from a guy who is constantly beta-testing it.

I guess you can say it has been a labor of love. Hopefully you guys won't be too harsh on the reviews when it comes out around this holiday!

This post has been edited by RyanThunder on Nov 21 2007, 07:41 AM

Good graphics can be done without the use of any .chr files but those things are the easiest to work with.

http://www.digitalmzx.net/forums/index.php...30&#entry222249

(IMG:http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/logicow/screen1.png)

You can have the best graphics that can be done with 16 colors, 2 colors per tile, and it would mean nothing if the game didn't utilize these graphics to the effect of good FEEL. That's all that matters in a game.

Yes it is important. Graphics are, whether you like it or not, the way your game is presented to the player.

And no they don't have to be very high quality as long as they are used with style. To be honest, I reckon a stylish but simple graphical style would work best in a mzx game. At least games like that get finished. Good (read appropriate for the mood and setting) use of colors and shapes outweighs excessively detailed graphics for me.

Simple graphics are fine, so long as they're used well.

The original Zeux games, for instance, don't rely on palette or char set changes (MZX 1.x didn't support that, after all) and, Catacombs aside, they still look fine to me. Gameplay is key.

DESIGN IS LAW. DESIGN IS LAW. DESIGN IS LAW. DESIGN IS LAW.

Hey guys I'm going to pretend like notable talent equals authority in these matters.

Am I the only one that liked the graphics in Darkness? Graphics in lower media are kind of hard to screw up. Given a good palette, even the shittiest board design and character set will look less vile. For these reasons, I'm more inclined to think that an EGA game with average (but not bad) graphics looks better than a VGA game with awful graphics.
And I'm very particular about my VGA... 8bit colour is a privilege, not a right, so you don't just piss about gradients left and right with a bazillion shades of horrible clashing colour. Cosmo's cosmic adventure will always look better than Dangerous Dave VGA. And that godawful wizardy game on dosgames.com.

In conclusion, graphics in megazeux are very important. However, it just so happens that you have to be of Insidious grade or thereabouts to make graphics THAT bad that the game noticeably suffers. Colour sense, and a sense of distribution is all it takes.

Who is this "Insidious" you speak of?

"I can deal with pre-fab graphics, just as long as they're used well."

honor quest 2 used mostly-prefab chars but it used them really well. good graphics can be created from the base mzx charset.
not that custom chars hurt, but i like it when a game gets as much life as possible out of one charset.

A game that has bad (or simple) graphics might be a good game if the graphics and colours are well-used, and the gameplay is good.

Now, I think the one of the advantages Megazeux provides is that you can edit the graphics with the character editor. Please use it, or go back to ZZT.

God you guys multiple char sets are the DEVIL, because you have to deal with them and worry about them loading and stuff. Also in my games any given enemy can appear in any given place, so you need all the graphics at once.

I can deal with "pre-fab" if by "pre-fab" you mean something other than "default."

Either way, color is a lot more important to me--don't leave the palette default.

I'm currently making a game that uses pretty much just "default graphics". I believe this is the first time I've ever attempting to do this. I have this addiction to go crazy with graphics and never actually focus on the gameplay of games. I want to see if I can make a game that can actually become successfully without the usual sparkled graphics I use.

EDIT:
Its actually a game I started a long time ago but never completed. So it originally only used defaults.

to answer the question of your poll, I think as long as a game has decent gameplay and good use of colors, its fine with me.

This post has been edited by T-bone6 on Nov 21 2007, 08:32 PM

In terms of MZX, I agree with T-bone... as long as it's varied enough to not look like it came out of the MZX-AutoGameMakerTron of default colors and characters, It's fine with me. Outside of MZX, graphics matter to me a great deal, which is likely why I got into the Myst series of games.

Good graphics are nice. They're just a piece of the puzzle, though, and I believe that you should divide your efforts appropriately.

I voted multiple char sets, but they don't have to be whole char sets. You can fit a whole lot of shit into a single set, and you should hardly need a second whole set. A few partial char sets are really nice though, for different areas or different enemies. It's not all that important, though. Like CJA said, the graphics should mostly be about the colors that you use; the colors do a lot to set the mood of your game, and should be modified. I'd actually be more worried about the soundtrack of a game than graphics. It's all about the background music and sfx.

This post has been edited by Kuroneko on Nov 21 2007, 11:29 PM

I usually like more retro looking games. Spectacular graphics aren't too important to me.

Good graphics are important, but you can't measure that by the number of characters used.

Basically, every board should have 2-3 types of blocks and 2-3 types of backgrounds. And there shouldn't be any big open space with the same repeating pattern.

Colors and contrast are particularly important. You want blocks and active objects to have good contrast from the background, and you want the background to have little contrast.

It's generally a good idea, in blocks and objects, for the foreground color to be a lighter shade of the background color. Or vice-versa, if your backgrounds are pale and your blocks are dark.

And, it should be easy to follow moving objects around and predict how they will react, and graphics play an important role in this.


To sum it up: I'd rather have a game use 128 characters and 8 colors well, with smooth sprite movement and a good framerate, than to have a game use ten character sets and ten palettes, but still have bad color choices, large blocks of the same repeating pattern and jerky, imprecise movement.

I don't think how "advanced" they are matters, just as long as they create a good and consistent style and work for the medium.

:frostyangel:

Thanks for your responses, guys. This really reassured me that graphics aren't all that important to you; they just need to have good consistency, contrast, and color.

This makes me feel a lot better about my work!

I like the looks of some of the older games to the newer look sometimes. Mzx's graphics are blocky, always have been probably always will be; I don't see why this is a bad thing.

Good graphics in mzx is largely a color deal, and having the skill to design graphics in mzx that work well. A good example is (and I know everyone will groan) AD games. AD didn't make nearly as many games as they advertised, but what they did get done looked great. Even if most of their completed games didn't use multi char objects, and funky graphical effects, their games still looked good because they could make graphics that looked good in mzx.

You can't really appreciate graphics in mzx, unless you've worked with mzx. You cannot make great graphics in mzx. You can try, but it's usually the case where the great graphics just don't make the game look as good as it would have with standard mzx graphics.

Basicly my stance on this is, if you can look back 10 years into mzx's history and say "mine looks better or on par with this stuff" you've made good mzx graphics. 10 years ago people were concerned about graphics... but in a different way than we are today I think. the graphics in mzx 10 years ago were great, but they weren't trying to over do it from the beginning and end up with graphics that just DON'T work in mzx. and that's really the problem today, make graphics that work well in mzx. and the graphics will look good.

Graphics are second to gameplay.. But a great game with hideous visuals might make me think twice about rating it nicely.

Better graphics make for better graphics, but never better gameplay.

You could take away textures from Half Life, and it'd still be the same game. Same engine, even.

Edit; Though, people are going to judge a game on graphics first.

This post has been edited by Elig on Nov 26 2007, 10:44 PM

Have you played a game where graphics were a hinderance to gameplay? If not, you need to go download some random NES game and play it.

Besides... in MZX, when graphic detail increases, the player's scope often decreases (i.e. the screen shows "less" at a time because everything is drawn with more characters and therefore appears like the player is viewing from a closer vantage point). Bigger enemies, characters and everything else means more precision is allowed.

(IMG:http://www.al3d.net/images/half-life2_wireframe.jpg)

:uhoh:

I agree! :pirate:

Yes. Graphics do have an impact on gameplay. Whether they're "good" or "bad" really depends on how they work with the far more important element of feel.

Feel is the point where precision activities that require a level of skill are able to be predicted or are flashed on the screen prominently enough to attract the player's attention as a mnemonic for what to do with a minimum of non-intuitive thought.

Maybe I'm biased, but that's what I think makes a comfortable game environment suitable for building the kinds of skills that videogames help with. But hey, I'm all for embellishments and multi-million dollar efforts on graphics as long as they really do contribute to fun and challenge.

e: If colors can be used in such a way that they produce a significant amount of alpha waves, so much the better. Check out NARC (the original version, NES or Arcade) or Heavy Metal FAKK2 (PC game) for the best examples I've ever seen.

This post has been edited by Maxim on Nov 29 2007, 02:24 AM